16:27 -!- Utopiah [~libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined #ubersoft
16:27 -!- Topic for #ubersoft: #ubersoft - xor eax, eax
16:27 -!- Topic set by forcer [] [Wed May 20 20:05:59 2009]
16:27 [Users #ubersoft]
16:27 [~bacterix] [+braam] [+Xires] [ krisje8] [ Utopiah] [ xDAREx] 
16:27 -!- Irssi: #ubersoft: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 4 normal]
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16:27 -!- Channel #ubersoft created Mon Jan 18 11:13:22 2010
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18:40 <~bacterix> Utopiah: wb, any thoughts on the fact that evolution disregards the individuals and prioritizes the existence of the race? it appears its agenda differs from ours
18:40 <+Utopiah> o/
18:41 <+Utopiah> Selfish Gene from Richard Dawkins?
18:41 <+Utopiah> I think it's generalizable
18:41 <+Utopiah> pretty much any system gains by exploiting anything
18:42 <+Utopiah> I think you mature a lot when you stop believing your system is there for your own good ;)
18:42 <+Utopiah> (which hacking in general helps to see, cf the POSIWID - The Purpose of a System is what it Does moto)
18:43 <~bacterix> if you break down every function of life, you realise every function is derived from the purpose of preserving the genetic code of the race
18:44 <+Utopiah> I think that's a dangerous bias our society gives us
18:44 <+Utopiah> our scoeity tends to makes us think we will live as long as it does which is false, so we give all our energy for the system ... and still die in the end, while it doesn't
18:45 <+Utopiah> the whole meritoratic (fake) ideal
18:46 <~bacterix> on a technical level, why would a self-preserving machine be created? because if it wasn't there wouldn't be a need for its protection
18:47 <+Utopiah> because that's what life is? self preservation?
18:47 <~bacterix> the only useful purpose I can think of, would be to use a life form to preserve some encoded message in its genetics, the parts that do not change
18:47 <+Utopiah> if you wait long enough, it should happen, that's why "we" are there, no?
18:48 <~bacterix> well, you are assuming that we're the result of a brute force combination by nature
18:49 <~bacterix> but evolution with its agenda seems to be more than cause and effect, if you take a look at the bigger picture you'll see a system of higher complexity
18:51 <~bacterix> a dead system, yet it's functioning like a living organism
18:57 <+Utopiah> (damn I hate my crapy connection)
18:57 <+Utopiah> yes
18:58 <+Utopiah> I think "brute force" is a good way to start pretty much anything
18:58 <+Utopiah> then environmental pressure and limited resources is a good way to force it to improve
18:58 <+Utopiah> eventually gaining in complexity
18:59 <+Utopiah> I think we tend to view "nature in a very antropocentric way
18:59 <+Utopiah> it's not a benevolant or bad process, it just "is" and that's enough IMHO
19:00 <+Utopiah> we still share our environment with very simple bacteria and virus
19:00 <+Utopiah> which are not that complex compared to our society
19:01 <+Utopiah> yet somehow the outcome isn't that obvious ;)
19:03 <+Utopiah> (bbl, gotta fetch some the of result with our friendly cohabitation with simple yeasts)
19:04 <+Utopiah> (i.e. beer)
19:04 <~bacterix> kk :p I do agree nature doesn't share our prejuidices
19:05 <~bacterix> I used to think of evolution as a "it just is" process
19:05 <~bacterix> because that's what's technically visible
19:07 <~bacterix> but the complexity and coincidences are a curious thing
19:08 <~bacterix> PW Bridgman said "coincidence is what you have left over, when you apply a bad theory"
19:21 < xDAREx> i agree with the coincidence thing. There's no such thing as coincidence, we just haven't found a way to explain it another way
19:21  * xDAREx joins the convo
19:25 < xDAREx> but i think,, till so far, that evolution is not a real "intelligent" process. its, imo, just genetic randomness; every new being is completely unique, changes a little from its ancestor. Then the good ones stay, the fail ones die. Natural selection.
19:25 < xDAREx> seeing it that way you can say humanity actually stopped the evolution by "saving the animals" and creating antidotes and curing sick people
19:29 <+Utopiah> (never been that efficient to buy stuff)
19:30 <+Utopiah> I really think it's an anthropomorphic bias, i.e. we think that nature "works" because we are there... but what makes us think that we are such a good product beside egocentrism?
19:32 <~bacterix> I wasn't prioritizing human beings over other lifeforms, fitness always depends on the ability to fulfil a particular purpose
19:33 <+Utopiah> maybe socities can be rated based on their ability to exploit individuals?
19:33 <+Utopiah> (to go back to the initial question)
19:33 < xDAREx> oh i agree with that, the human brain is programmed to see human aspects in everything. example: :)  thats not even cloose to a human face.. though we see a human expression. Same with a dmt trip, many dmt trips in which you travel to an entire new land, there are humanoid beings
19:36 <+Utopiah> but I don't think evolution can totally disregard the inviduals, it still have to be strong enough to make the society sustain
19:37 <~bacterix> rather than rating societies and species, I was making the point that all species are part of the evolution process and humans in particular are not accustomed to thinking in terms of nature; i.e. we consider death to be a somewhat bad/sad thing, rather than acknowledging the fact that our own bodies give up on us
19:38 <~bacterix> it related to what xDAREx said about us saving the weak/sick; which interferes with natural selection, because despite our beliefs that we exist for our own good, we have death programmed into us
19:38 <+Utopiah> it's good for society to makes us thinks so, through culture I guess, because we can give ourselves entirely to it, like political ideal, and do what is counter-natural, like kill yourself for a cause
19:39 <+Utopiah> I mean biologically speaking it's illogical to sacrifice yourself
19:40 <+Utopiah> unless you think your act will somehow make something greater benefit from it
19:40 <~bacterix> by saying "disregarding the individual" I only meant that if the individuality was the concept that was respected, then we'd never die, but of course the individual mutations that give rise to new species are respected by evolution
19:40 < xDAREx> evolutionary its a good thing, if you're thinking of killing yourself, you are "wrong", so you whipe yourself out
19:41 <~bacterix> here's the dividing line, evolution may be good, but it's not good for us as individuals, because it can give rise to better species and we'd fall behind
19:42 <+Utopiah> it can or it will? :P
19:42 <~bacterix> it will unless we interfere :p culture should be a reflection of our knowledge, meaning it should be more science friendly
19:43 <+Utopiah> so far it has always been
19:43 < xDAREx> bacterix: we dont experience the fact that there are better/newer species, cuz weĺl be dead by then
19:44 <~bacterix> xDAREx: well, monkeys are still around to experience us, and we put them in cages
19:45 <+Utopiah> hopefuly it's precisely our understanding of the evolution mechanism that could make us change the game
19:45 < xDAREx> yeah.. but thats when there'll arise new species from humanity
19:45 < xDAREx> that will only happen when 2 or more human groups are seperated for a long time
19:45 <+Utopiah> most likely not to happen...
19:46 <~bacterix> xDAREx: I do agree with the idea that the human mind always tries to find familiar patterns, I've seen the humanoid beings dancing ;)
19:46 < xDAREx> hehe, well thats just my theory, i havent experienced it .. yet
19:46 < xDAREx> but ive read about it
19:46 <~bacterix> the question is, would evolution sabotage itself by creating beings with intelligence?
19:46 <+Utopiah> there is sexual selection
19:47 < xDAREx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Elves
19:47 <~bacterix> we are intelligent enough to take evolution into our own hands, as Utopiah said, our understanding of evolution can derail the train
19:48 < xDAREx> bacterix: its not like there just will arise more intelligent beings, its because the intelligent beings are more likely to survive
19:48 <+Utopiah> as long as there is pressure (sexual or from the environment) there should be evolution
19:48 < xDAREx> by our modern society theres no way the smarter people will survive better or longer than dumbasses
19:48 <~bacterix> we have enough intelligence to build nuclear weapons, but not enough intelligence as a society to use them well, since we're constantly experiencing tension over the issue
19:48 < xDAREx> humans only get smarter by science atm, and transferring information from one being to another
19:49 <~bacterix> we can hope to understand the evolution process and advance our own intelligence, before we accidentally wipe ourselves out
19:49 <+Utopiah> well as long as we don't wipe out everybody...
19:49 < xDAREx> that is actually quite likely to happen;p
19:51 < xDAREx> some giantic war .. or the lhc which'll create too much antimatter creating an explosing wiping out our solarsystem;p
19:52 < xDAREx> but if it not wipe out ALL humans that would actually be a good thing, then evolution got kickstarted again
19:52 <+Utopiah> xDAREx: regarding societal collapse you might want to check few links I gathered on the topic http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Projetautonomieenergetique#SocietalCollapse ;)
19:52 < xDAREx> but then we have to struggle to survive again, survival of the fittest
19:53 <+Utopiah> even if it wipes out all human evolution will still go on, just following another path
19:53 <+Utopiah> we are just one branch of potential solutions
19:54 < xDAREx> the question is, the solution to what :)
19:54 <+Utopiah> entropy
19:55 <+Utopiah> every living organism is a process that filter energy to sustain itself
19:55 <+Utopiah> cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis
19:55 <+Utopiah> (also called life ;)
19:57 <~bacterix> there's the question of evolution again, and life is a higher order of matter, but why would it form this structure? so that dead matter can move around? :p
20:19 <+Utopiah> I think it form that "structure" precisely because it's stable
20:21 <+Utopiah> stable in the sense that it tries to maintain itself over time
20:21 <~bacterix> could be, but is the random brute force time for reaching a new level of complexity being reduced with each higher level of complexity? in other words, once the random combination for life is found, the process has a tendency to be better at evolving in the right direction
20:21 <+Utopiah> even if the environment is changing
20:21 <+Utopiah> I think so yes
20:22 <+Utopiah> but... right direction is risky, so far no organism was able to predict well
20:22 <+Utopiah> (and we think we are but it's not sure ;)
20:29 <+Utopiah> at least, the organism spend resources trying to improve its situation
20:30 <+Utopiah> (thus increasing its chances of survival, that's all what life is about)
20:30 <+Utopiah> so culture should theoretically be a great tool (if not the best)
20:32 <~bacterix> supposing the culture aims for advancing the species