12:47 < Utopiah> so I think I know what thinking is
12:48 [Users #education]
12:48 [@ChanServ] [ dira] [ Utopiah] 
12:48 -!- Irssi: #education: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
13:06 < dira> and that is ?
13:14 < Utopiah> the process that extact information by transforming a probabilty distribution to another distribution using energy.
13:16 < dira> probability = weight (chance) of one event
13:16 < dira> probability distribution = weights (chance) of one events
13:16 < dira> weights (chance) of one events=neural networks
13:17 < dira> process of information by neural networks = thinking
13:17 < Utopiah> except they are not self-reflexive
13:17 < dira> self-reflexive ?
13:17 < Utopiah> well, not that I know of
13:18 < dira> self-reflexive?
13:18 < dira> "they " ?
13:18 < Utopiah> Artificial neural networks models Ive seen 
13:19 < dira> what do you mean of self-reflexive ? 
13:21 < dira> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsupervised_learning ?
13:21 < Utopiah> that the distribution has a representation of itself that it can use to decide the following process that will lead (potentialy, based on its stats) to the best updates (thus directing what information to perceive next)
13:23 < dira> in discrete data or continuous form ?
13:23 < Utopiah> I don't think it matters
13:24 < dira> "Sum is more than parts" ?
13:25 < dira> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
13:25 < Utopiah> synergy?
13:25 < Utopiah> yes
13:25 < Utopiah> Ive studied that a bit
13:25 < dira> yeah + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy
13:26 < Utopiah> I don't think it is required
13:26 < dira> we are reaching exiting point , first let me ask 
13:26 < dira> do you think matrices are magic ?
13:26 < dira> they can do extraordinary things ?
13:27 < Utopiah> I don't believe in magic, in extraordinary, in supernatural, etc... I think "raw" nature is beautiful enough :D
13:27 < dira> ok , so let me rephrase , why matrices are so useful ?
13:29 < dira> or why in context of complex numbers : "The imaginary numbers are a wonderful flight of God's spirit"
13:30 < dira> there is subtle point in all of them
13:31 < dira> as physicist I had to dig so deep to understand their essence , now I want to share my understanding maybe you can fix its flaws 
13:31 < Utopiah> if I think matrices, Euclidian or non-Euclidian spaces, manifolds, etc... are way more powerful tool people conventionnaly think, then yes
13:32 < dira> the key point is in difference of normal collections (set ) and matrices
13:32 < dira> in an image ,you store it as 3D matrix 
13:33 < dira> you can also store each pixel's color in row and as members of a simple set
13:33 < dira> but by flatting the image you are losing some information , what is that information ?
13:34 < dira> lets call it order of data , or chronological / positional properties
13:35 < Utopiah> it's relation toward other pixels along the Z axis?
13:35 < Utopiah> (which can be very partially deduced from shawdows, transparency, etc...)
13:35 < dira> and  X ,  Y axis
13:36 < dira> so matrices represent two different properties of entry
13:36 < dira> 1- value
13:37 < dira> 2- position
13:37 < dira> but normal sets only include value
13:37 < Utopiah> position=index in the matrices coordinates?
13:37 < dira> exactly
13:38 < dira> and back to probability distribution
13:38 < dira> what makes them "self-reflexive" ?
13:39 < dira> the order / position/ chronological order,index  or whatever you might call
13:40 < Utopiah> that the distribution run itself , close to a form of homoiconicity I guess
13:40 < dira> ok , let me ask , what is probability distribution ?
13:41 < dira> lets talk in discrete form for now
13:41 < Utopiah> it is usually defined as a 2D curve I don't think about it that way
13:41 < dira> what is discrete  probability distribution 
13:41 < dira> ?
13:42 < Utopiah> well i guess it could be synthesis to 2D but seen the complexity I was thinking of an N D distribution (N being extremely high)
13:42 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_probability_distributions
13:43 -!- but those are not self-updating
13:43 < Utopiah> but those are not self-reflexive and thus can not be self-updating
13:44 < dira> probability distribution is just a simple mapping  that maps probability value to each point in the domain !
13:44 < Utopiah> unlike the dynamic nature of a brain which main mechanism is precisaly to update itself (through thinking, as defined earlier)
13:45 < dira> how are you mixing the two :D
13:45 < dira> "probability distribution is just a simple mapping that maps probability value to each point in the domain !" agreed ?
13:45 < Utopiah> yes
13:46 < Utopiah> when you think, you change the values of a set of points
13:46 < dira> ok then, so they can simply be modeled by matrix , agreed?
13:47 < Utopiah> knowing that a matrice can be N dimensional, I don't really know something that can not be modeled by a matrice
13:47 < dira> they = PB
13:48 < dira> ok then , ANN are based on matrices , and their perception is based on proper updating of those matrices !
13:49 < dira> the structure of ANN is complete , you might say the updating algorithm doesn't use "self-reflexive" property , but I'd say it does !
13:49 < dira> back-propagation algorithm ?
13:50 < Utopiah> I know back-propagation
13:50 < Utopiah> layer points back into the ANN
13:50 < Utopiah> I don't think it's sufficiant though
13:51 < dira> ok, then , why they are not sufficient ?
13:52 < dira> because from your thinking definition , ANN can think, but you say it lacks "self-reflexive" , I'd say there are recursive (self-modifying) algorithms 
13:53 < Utopiah> it is not able to automatically look for information that would potentially improve the quality of its results, maybe self-propagation is enough to do but so far I don't think it was used that way, but only for corrections of potential errors which is different
13:54 < dira> oh god, the oracle problem is here again :D
13:55 < Utopiah> no Orable or God in this channel please ;)
13:55 < Utopiah> I guess that theoretically
13:55 < dira> " information that would potentially improve the quality" , how one can say one information is helpful to improve quality ?
13:55 < Utopiah> an ANN that would require even for random (that's a poor strategy but, it is one) would potentially qualify according to my definition
13:56 < Utopiah> (words missing, let me rephrase)
13:57 < Utopiah> I guess that theoretically an ANN that would require, even randomly (that's a poor strategy but a start) datesets to update itself, would qualify as a "thinking" process according to my initial definition.
13:57 < Utopiah> and the next step would be for it to learn to pick the best dataset instead of random one.
13:58 < dira> "best dataset" , how does it realize what is "best" ?
13:59 < Utopiah> precisely because the simulation of the update from acquiring that dataset would increase the quality of its probability distribution
13:59 < dira> "increase the quality of its probability distribution", what do you mean ?
14:00 < Utopiah> (it does not know what is best, it can only bet on it, it's a probability too)
14:00 < Utopiah> one does not think in a vaccu,
14:00 < Utopiah> thinking, is a costly process (in the definition, it requires energy)
14:01 < Utopiah> thus it has to provide an advantage in the context it is executed
14:01 < Utopiah> the better the quality of your probability distribution is, the higher your chances of success (whatever you plan to do) are
14:02 < Utopiah> if you bet according to an innacurate distribution, you will loose.
14:02 < Utopiah> no?
14:02 < dira> I think still you are thinking with bias !
14:02 < dira> "the higher your chances of success"
14:02 < dira> how to say what has higher chance?
14:03 < dira> dude we as human can say ok , asking question from university professor has chance to be correct than asking shop-keeper
14:04 < dira> but that is not due to our brain structure
14:04 < dira> that is because we learned to act this way
14:04 < dira> or
14:04 < dira> better said "
14:04 < dira> :
14:04 < dira> we learned to decide and choose better datasets 
14:05 < Utopiah> I think it's independant from any human aspect
14:05 < Utopiah> and I fail to see what bias you are talking about, could you please clarify
14:07 < dira> bias is that you think better (with higher chance ) dataset  is known to ANN or human without extra information and only based on the original dataset ( which you call it probability distribution )
14:09 < Utopiah> (on an ironically side node, I see a bias as a low quality probability distribution)
14:11 < Utopiah> if you prefer, "looking for a good dataset" is not thinking, it's "thinking well"
14:12 < Utopiah> thinking itself, as said earlier, could theoretically work with a random dataset.
14:12 < dira> ok ,we are reaching somewhere, how to think well ?
14:12 < Utopiah> precisely by using self-reflexivity.
14:13 < dira> and what is self-reflexivity in context of thinking well :( ?
14:13 < Utopiah> knowing which probabilities in your distribution have a very high imprecision value
14:14 < Utopiah> (more classicaly said as knowing what you know, knowing what you don't know)
14:14 < Utopiah> I don't think ANN have that, even with back-propagation
14:14 < dira> (btw "thinking well" is highly related to talk I had in PIM days ago )  
14:15 < dira> (rereading your statements)
14:15 < dira> ok :
14:16 < dira> thinking well --> self-reflexivity --> "a very high imprecision value" --> ?  , how ?
14:18 < dira> I'd say without *extra* information you cannot say which probabilities in your distribution have a very high imprecision value, or if you say ok we bet , that is the plain-old random based thinking
14:18 < Utopiah> thus you need for other dataset, hence my previous requirement on ANN and their lack of ability to look for other datasets.
14:19 < dira> so does human ?
14:23 < dira> I'm saying human needs that *extra* datasets , so there is no difference between human thinking and ANN thinking at this aspect at least ,and  where to get that *extra* information , that is called meta-knowledge
14:24 < dira> that's why I said earlier  we need super centralized web based AI 
14:25 < dira> in study if intelligence in species , there is difference between conscious creature and  (conscious  + self-conscious) creature 
14:25 < Utopiah> I don't know any ANN that ask for other datasets and can generalize higher than the trained dataset, if you know some, please do let me know.
14:26 < dira> consciousness it to know, but self-consciousness is to know that you know  ( or even to know that you don't know )
14:27 < Utopiah> Id rather avoid discussion on consciousness outside of ##philosophy 
14:27 < dira> lets call this meta-knowledge based system  ,trans-consciousness
14:28 < dira> brb , I think I have good  AI sample related to your question
14:28 < Utopiah> basically, if the feedback from the usage of an ANN would be able to detect its weakness (high imprecision on probability of success on a subset) and would query for a dataset specialized in this area, I would qualify it as thinking
14:29 < Utopiah> if there is a human in the loop suggesting the new dataset to correct overfitting, then it is thinking
14:30 < Utopiah> the human in the loop "fake" the self-reflexive aspect the ANN is lacking.
14:36 < Utopiah> well
14:36 < Utopiah> take you time then, Im going to eat.
14:37 < Utopiah> (Im still welcome all AI-related systems you think of as long as they have tests done with them)
00:17 < Utopiah> woops
00:18 < Utopiah> ok, added
00:18 < dira> Interactive visual interface , what's that ? the bobbles in the first page?
00:19 < Utopiah> cf http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Dira.ProgLangEvo#Discussions
00:19 < Utopiah> ajax
00:19 < Utopiah> it's generated based on the wiki content
00:20 < dira> alright , gonna go angel hunting
00:21 < Utopiah> don't be bad
00:22 < dira> I was devil worshiper in a short period of my life 
00:22 < Utopiah> Zzzzz
00:22 < dira> night
00:22 < dira> see ya tom
00:23 < Utopiah> ++
00:23 -!- dira [n=chatzill@86.99.40.183] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"]
15:19 -!- dira [n=chatzill@86.99.40.183] has joined #education
15:19 < dira> hey there
15:19 < Utopiah> hi
15:20 < dira> what's up today?
15:20 < Utopiah> eating
15:23 < dira> I'm installing  mediawiki , I think to night be have our mediawiki running
15:23 < dira> *we
15:24 < Utopiah> requires MySQL and stuff, good thing is, once MediaWiki is running SemanticMediaWiki is just one module away, if we want to
15:28 < dira> if that doesn't change the structure of mediawiki , why not installing it 
15:28 < Utopiah> it doesn't, they are separate tables
15:29 < dira> good then
15:30 < dira> I just am installing mysql on public server fro you to able to connect to DB remotely
15:30 < dira> *for
16:08 < dira> let me know whenever you are ready for da tour
16:08 < Utopiah> I prepared a template of the default page for the tour
16:08 < Utopiah> but... the tour itself is still taking form,slowly
16:12 < dira> alright , when do you think it would be ready too shoot ?
16:12 < dira> *to
16:13 < Utopiah> when it will be ready
16:13 < Utopiah> hopefuly before monday
16:13 < dira> a week ?
16:13 < Utopiah> less than a week?
16:13 < dira> 6 days ?
16:14 < Utopiah> "hopefuly before" so.. maybe in 1h, maybe in 200h :)
16:17 < dira> I appreciate your enthusiasm to manage your old and new projects BUT that's too much , we just need basic review of what you have done so far, you just open each part of your website (since whatever you do is on the site) and describe each part a little , we might list interesting topics to talk later ,and in proper time we discuss about them 
16:20 < Utopiah> ok
18:22 < Utopiah> (NuevoAtlas | Charles Darwin.s .On the Origin of Species. can be... http://nuevoatlas.tumblr.com/post/188595807/charles-darwins-on-the-origin-of-species-can-be visualizes all the edits and additions introduced in each edition of the work)
18:27 < Utopiah> pretty neat, similar work on the visualization of edition was already done with Wikipedia but it was focusing on collaboration while here one can see the whole chronological work on one author on one  of his major work
20:05 < dira> that keeps track of species found chronologically ?
20:05 < Utopiah> no, of the book rewrittings
20:20 < dira> visualized version hostory
20:38 < dira> installation is finished ,where is admin panel ? I want to create user for you
20:41 < Utopiah> just login as root
20:41 < Utopiah> with the info you have during configuration
20:41 < dira> I think you have to register user yourself then I can escalate your privilege 
20:41 < Utopiah> then it's something like /Special:Admin
20:41 < Utopiah> ok
20:42 < dira> http://wiki.knowledgatic.org
20:42 < dira> http://projects.knowledgatic.org/
20:50 < Utopiah> http://wiki.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/index.php?title=User:Utopiah
20:54 < dira> and that "*.org/knwiki/X"  is annoying ! it works  like "*.org/X" too, I think It's possible to change the URL from settings
20:55 < dira> check if you are admin now
20:56 < dira> http://wiki.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers
20:56  * Utopiah is admin
20:56  * Utopiah can thus access and use http://wiki.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/index.php?title=Special:SpecialPages
21:00 < dira> and I set the 404 error to be something more meaningful  rather than "Be Righ There"  thing
21:01 < dira> takes at most 30 min to be applied to main server
21:02 < dira> http://projects.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page ??!!! why ? they both point to same folder
21:03 < Utopiah> they?
21:04 < dira> wiki.kn.org & projects.kn.org
21:05 < dira> eh ,contents seem to be the same on both but theme 
21:05 < Utopiah> kn.org is actually a real japanese domain ;)
21:06 < dira> hehe
21:06 < dira> how's your time now ? free?
21:07 < Utopiah> kinda
21:08 < dira> ok ,then , there are four things we should do to finalize this web-site
21:08 < dira> 1- fix that /knwiki/ thing
21:08 < Utopiah> (don't understand)
21:09 < dira> http://projects.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page == http://projects.knowledgatic.org/index.php?title=Main_Page !!!
21:09 < Utopiah> to be honest, with so many domain names and systems, I hope it's clear for you because to me it's a bit of maze :/
21:11 < dira> I think that is from portal setting , server side , there is nothing to set beside Host Headers which binds sub domains to specific folder  ex: wiki subdomain of knowledgatic.org is set to point to /knwiki/ folder , which is installation root folder
21:14 < dira> 2- multi portals on mediawiki ; to have something like : [project name].knowledgatic.org  for each project (category ? ) on our portal 
21:14 < dira> wiki farm ?
21:14 < dira> I'm new to wiki s
21:15 < Utopiah> with a farm you can have the same codebase but different configuration including modules and DB (using a prefix AFAIK)
21:16 < Utopiah> i.e. you can use mediawiki version x.y.z on N wikis 
21:16 < Utopiah> yet personnalize them.
21:17 < dira> ok then how can I do scenario I've mentioned ?
21:17 < Utopiah> (as opposed to installting mediawiki version x.y.z N times, which can be done too)
21:17 < dira> to have something like : [project name].knowledgatic.org for each project (category ? ) on our portal 
21:17 < Utopiah> well, do you want the same users?
21:17 < dira> what do you think we want ?
21:17 < Utopiah> do you want the same modules? is yes to both then we should just use the same wiki
21:18 < Utopiah> I think 1 wiki is fine, if required we can just copy it and fork
21:18 < dira> copy and fork ? copy db or files or even both ?
21:18 < Utopiah> I think keep it minimal first is better, means we won't get lost into complexity that is just there for a future that might not come
21:24 < dira> ok then , lets design our website map...
21:25 < dira> knowledgatic.org --> CMS 
21:26 < dira> X.knowledgatic.org where x is [projects,Wiki]   --> wikimedia
21:26 < Utopiah> the same one?
21:26 < dira> yeah
21:26 < dira> though theme is different !
21:27 < dira> and X.knowledgatic.org/knwiki/ where x is [projects,Wiki] --> wikimedia (strange !)
21:28 < Utopiah> hmmm theme might be different because of bug in the absolute path in the configuration
21:28 < Utopiah> (probably misleading the CSS)
21:29 < dira> yeah maybe
21:30 < dira> I just installed the portal ,and just made you admin 
21:30 < Utopiah> ok
21:33 < dira> ok here is pages , I  suggest : 
21:33 < dira> 1-feedback page , 
21:33 < dira> 2- main page of knowledgatic
21:33 < dira> having description of what is our research group about
21:33 < dira> briefly
21:34 < dira> 3- main page of projects.kn.org (including list of projects) 
21:35 < dira> 4-  each project should have  its own category with special user permissions. For example : public user should not be able to see our private projects 
21:37 < dira> and optionally each project can have specific URL like: Project Name : Evolutionary Dynamics of Programming Languages  , URL : [langs,languages,langauges,...].knowledgatic.org
21:39 < dira> that is so helpful at least for langs project because there are huge number of features, fundamental factors and  compared programming languages exist 
21:41 < dira> 5- general discussion / suggestions in kn.org (using forum ) to attract traditional forum users
21:41 < dira> 6- about us
21:41 < dira> 7- admin dashboard (in cms)
21:41 < Utopiah> ok, it's much clearer
21:41 < Utopiah> but to be honest
21:42 < Utopiah> I know you like domain names, subdomains and URL rewrite
21:42 < dira> (listening )
21:42 < Utopiah> admit you do :)
21:43 < dira> I like tree based separation of contents ;) and URL is great tool 
21:43 < Utopiah> (I take it as a "yes, I admit it" :)
21:43 < dira> :D
21:44 < Utopiah> and I agree, it's important, yet a the same time we shouldn't spend too much time on it because : 1st only nerds even know what an URL is and  2nd it's not as important as content, in the end the wiki page had so bad URL you couldn't remember, yet they have the longer texts we have wrote so far
21:44 < Utopiah> no?
21:45 < dira> true
21:46 < Utopiah> and it breaks my heart to say so, becaues I like neat URLs too
21:46 < dira> so we are nerds and we are proud ;)
21:46 < Utopiah> but if we are already, ourselves, lost in systems (domains, wikis, cms, ...) then what about people who might come there 30min/month?
21:46 < Utopiah> sure we are
21:47 < dira> oh for the user :
21:48 < dira> 1- he searches the web for knowledge management ,for programming languages or etc
21:48 < dira> or he reads some articles pointing him to our site
21:48 < dira> 2- he opens knowledgatic,org
21:48 < dira> *.org
21:48 < Utopiah> btw
21:49 < Utopiah> Ill try to interview friends who work at La Defense for Cap Gemini , one of the largest "programmer farm" of the industry
21:49 < Utopiah> to get information on the tools they have and if they have experts in progrmaming languages, their usage, etc...
21:49 < Utopiah> so if you have questions, add them to the dedicated website page
21:51 < dira> great :) because if there are governmental /enterprise projects Involved they have to create a sub-language or tool (at least DSL) for themselves 
21:52 < Utopiah> we should ask project managers too
21:52 < dira> right
21:52 < Utopiah> (thus putting all the questions in the page then ordering them by topic and priority, etc...)
21:53 < Utopiah> we want objective answers, not just our wishful motivated by curiosity thinking
21:53 < dira> correct
21:55 < dira> and if we can only develop prototype language for famous open source/ plugin based IDE s (like Eclipse) we will gain huge attraction 
21:57 < dira> our question then can be more experimental and case specific , for example , one company uses Perl ,and we have evolved version of Perl , so we ask them whether  our version of Perl would be of help or not 
23:58 -!- dira [n=chatzill@86.99.40.183] has left #education []
10:02 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
23:22 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"]
15:23 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
16:01 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
18:05 -!- Ari-Ugwu [n=ishi@sbs.fiestaval.com] has joined #education
18:05 < Ari-Ugwu> http://www.deviltronics.com/product/30/electric-shock-quiz-game
18:05 [Users #education]
18:05 [@ChanServ] [ Ari-Ugwu] [ Utopiah] 
18:05 -!- Irssi: #education: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
18:05 < Ari-Ugwu> I'll entertain reasons why I shouldn't buy that.
18:06 < Utopiah> I doubt Ill add it to http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Content.Education
18:08 < Ari-Ugwu> I think I'd want it attached to my temples though.
18:08 < Ari-Ugwu> I think the delivery has to  be automatic to simulate an external authority.
18:08 < Ari-Ugwu> Though maybe I'll start with a rubber band on my wrist.
18:09 < Utopiah> it's #education not #Sadomasochism though
18:12 < Ari-Ugwu> True. I suppose I'm just looking for faster methods of retention.
18:13 < Ari-Ugwu> Better memory == faster and more detailed retention/retrieval right?
18:17 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacing_effect
18:17 < Utopiah> http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/
18:17 < Utopiah> and more at http://wiki.seedea.org/Seedea/SandIdeabox#wikiasalearningtool
18:17 < Utopiah> unfortunately, I don't think retention is meaningful
18:18 < Utopiah> I mean, logical deduction should be enough
18:18 < Ari-Ugwu> hmm.
18:18 < Utopiah> thus I think one has to improve his models, rather than remembering more.
18:18 < Ari-Ugwu> I have mnemsoyne. Trying to figure out how to best utilize it.
18:19 < Ari-Ugwu> Utopiah: Your saying, "Don't _memorize_ the answers to riddles, learn how to _solve_ riddles."?
18:20 < Utopiah> yes, understand the fundamental nature of riddles.
18:20 < Utopiah> then no memorization is required.
18:21 < Ari-Ugwu> So in terms of decision making  this would mean, learning all the forms of cognitive bias as well as formal/informal fallacies?
18:22 < Ari-Ugwu> I mean, _some_ memorization would have to occur but the  applications after that would  be near infinite and the reinforcement would be continual.
18:22  * Ari-Ugwu realizes he just found his first use for mnemsoyne!
18:23 < Utopiah> well, AFAIK the brain works with frequency patterns, so continuous re-inforcement doesn't sound ridicule to me
18:24 < Utopiah> cf Temporal Interactions between Cortical Rhythms http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2622758 Front Neurosci > v.2(2); Dec 2008
18:26 < Utopiah> isn't why people cherish family pictures too? keeping those memory cycles running?
18:26 < Utopiah> \isn't it
18:27 < Utopiah> yet, I doubt this is scalable, hence my view on manipulating increasingly synthesizing models.
22:39 -!- Ari-Ugwu [n=ishi@sbs.fiestaval.com] has quit ["DRY by Design"]
04:54 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
05:03 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
06:02 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
07:41 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:56 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
12:32 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
13:08 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
18:01 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
18:04 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
18:09 -!- baku [n=baku@proxy-socks-1.ig-iit.com] has joined #education
18:09 -!- baku [n=baku@proxy-socks-1.ig-iit.com] has left #education ["Leaving"]
18:09 [Users #education]
18:09 [@ChanServ] [ dira] [ Utopiah] 
18:09 -!- Irssi: #education: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
00:52 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
03:34 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
04:04 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
06:03 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has joined #education
06:17 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:20 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
21:36 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
22:03 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
00:18 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
03:10 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
08:10 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:33 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
17:01 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
18:27 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
19:14 -!- brynjarh [n=binni@dsl-149-97-250.hive.is] has joined #education
19:33 -!- brynjarh [n=binni@dsl-149-97-250.hive.is] has left #education []
21:31 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
03:43 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
08:27 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:23 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
16:53 < Utopiah> dira: http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Bypassing.Censorship
16:57 < dira> third item is what I love
16:58 < dira> I mean the ssh
16:59 < Utopiah> yes, yet in case your SSH server or it's admin were to be adbucted, knowing the rest could be nice.
17:02 < dira> *abducted?
17:03 < Utopiah> or killed
17:03 < dira> correct , I love risk takers :D
18:47 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
19:53 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
22:42 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:43 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
23:47 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
02:17 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
04:17 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
08:45 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:44 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
18:41 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
20:17 -!- Frederic [n=Frederic@cev75-3-82-230-32-169.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #education
20:17 < Frederic> Hello
20:17 < Utopiah> hi Frederic , would you mind giving me your website URl again please? I promised it to a friend
20:18 < Frederic> www.elementaire.org
20:19 < Frederic> It's possible that there are some bugs on the website in these days.
20:19 < Utopiah> thanks
20:20 < Utopiah> (done, feedback should come "soon")
20:24 < Frederic> Thank you.  :-)
20:25 < dira> hello
20:25 < Frederic> Hello dira
20:25 < dira> what's up?
20:27 < dira> clean website !
20:27 < Frederic> Thank you.  :-)
20:27 < dira> English version ?
20:28 < Frederic> I think about it.
20:28 < dira> what tools did you use?
20:29 < Frederic> The code is in javascript. And I use some stuff of HTML 5, like the canvas tag.
20:30 < Frederic> If you like at the transformations in geometry, you will find some canvas tag.
20:31 < Frederic> *look* sorry
20:32 < dira> yui ?
20:32 < dira> yahoo UI ?
20:32 < Frederic> No  :-)
20:33 < Frederic> I don't use libraries
20:33 < dira> neat 
20:33 < Frederic> I do it all by myself.
20:34 < dira> broken link in http://www.elementaire.org/#/informations
20:34 < dira> http://www.elementaire.org/audacity.sourceforge.net
20:34 < dira> - Audacity, un édite part
20:35 < Frederic> You are right. I'll check about that, thanks.
20:35 < dira> np
20:42 < dira> I like the way you design  pages , clean and client-based
20:43 < Frederic> I corrected the link. Thank you, this is typically the kind of thing I can overlook.
20:44 < Frederic> Thank you. I try to make clean pages, yes.
20:47 < Frederic> I would like to make an english version, but I need to discuss with english teachers, because I think some think would need to be different in english. The other problem is that in a way it's clear that the audience in english would be wider, but I'm not sure I could reach and satisfy such public. That's why I would like to discussion with english and american teachers.
21:39 < Utopiah> Frederic: I know it's not the level you are teaching to but I recently added few maths tools at http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=ReadingNotes.Hadamard#Tools
22:02 < Frederic> Yes, Wolfram Alpha is interesting.
22:02 < Frederic> I read How to Solve It of Polya too. Nice book in my point of view.
22:03 < Utopiah> have a PDF?
22:10 < Frederic> I have it in book, sorry.  :-)
22:11 < Utopiah> might require a date then :P
22:11 < Frederic> I studied philosophy, and particularly epistemology. So I've a lot of books on this matter.  :-)
22:11 < Frederic> Hehe
22:12 < Utopiah> but actually I prefer PDFs
22:12 < Utopiah> but because I can quote from them, search, keep them indexed.
22:13 < Frederic> I understand. I read more and more on my computer too now.
22:16 < Utopiah> with the... autoscroll <3
22:17 < Utopiah> oh, since you had a teacher who studied epistemology I had another idea since last time
22:17 < Utopiah> s/had/are/
22:17 < Frederic> Yes ?
22:18 < Utopiah> a causal tree of the books I read
22:18 < Utopiah> like book X lead to book Y then to Z
22:18 < Utopiah> I already have a (partial) chronology of the books I read
22:19 < Utopiah> but now Id like a structure with links from book to book
22:21 < Frederic> It's a nice idea. I think it could really help, even if in the end it would very hard to link books because there would be too many links.
22:23 < Utopiah> wrote it down with links at http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=ReadingNotes.ReadingNotes#CausalReadingTree
22:23 < Utopiah> (since now my wiki starts to have this type of data available)
22:24 < Frederic> A bibliography is in a way something similar.
22:25 < Utopiah> yes, for the writer
22:26 < Utopiah> but for the reader, it's harder to backtrack what lead you to read a book or another
22:28 < Frederic> Yes.
22:29 < Utopiah> ideally
22:29 < Utopiah> I want to have a chronological animation of the generated causal tree
22:29 < Utopiah> so that one can see it unfold moment by moment
22:30 < Frederic> That's interesting.
22:32 < dira> is it nest of epistemologists ?
22:32 < dira> all here interested in epistemology !
22:33 < Utopiah> it shouldn't come as a surprise in #education 
22:34 < Frederic> :-)
22:46 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
00:06 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
02:46 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
02:56 < dira> halo meshezabeel
03:00 < Meshezabeel> tansi kiya dira
04:09 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
04:50 -!- Frederic [n=Frederic@cev75-3-82-230-32-169.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4pre/20090919174914]"]
08:11 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has left #education ["Konversation terminated!"]
20:53 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
23:10 -!- Utopiah [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined #education
23:10 [Users #education]
23:10 [@ChanServ] [ dira] [ Utopiah] 
23:10 -!- Irssi: #education: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
23:10 -!- Channel #education created Thu Jun 11 23:54:08 2009
23:11 -!- #education [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
23:11 -!- Irssi: Join to #education was synced in 87 secs
00:12 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
01:12 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
04:32 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
10:31 -!- trakcyia [n=ueoaueoa@cpe-76-171-121-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #education
10:31 -!- trakcyia [n=ueoaueoa@cpe-76-171-121-40.socal.res.rr.com] has left #education ["Leaving"]
13:27 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
15:54 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
16:34 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
03:09 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"]
04:39 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@142.165.220.69] has joined #education
08:50 -!- Meshezabeel [n=kevin@unaffiliated/meshezabeel] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:47 -!- Twarz [n=Tao44@proxy-socks-1.ig-iit.com] has joined #education
11:47 -!- Twarz [n=Tao44@proxy-socks-1.ig-iit.com] has left #education ["Quitte"]
12:08 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #education
12:47 < Utopiah> so I think I know what thinking is
12:48 [Users #education]
12:48 [@ChanServ] [ dira] [ Utopiah] 
12:48 -!- Irssi: #education: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
13:06 < dira> and that is ?
13:14 < Utopiah> the process that extact information by transforming a probabilty distribution to another distribution using energy.
13:16 < dira> probability = weight (chance) of one event
13:16 < dira> probability distribution = weights (chance) of one events
13:16 < dira> weights (chance) of one events=neural networks
13:17 < dira> process of information by neural networks = thinking
13:17 < Utopiah> except they are not self-reflexive
13:17 < dira> self-reflexive ?
13:17 < Utopiah> well, not that I know of
13:18 < dira> self-reflexive?
13:18 < dira> "they " ?
13:18 < Utopiah> Artificial neural networks models Ive seen 
13:19 < dira> what do you mean of self-reflexive ? 
13:21 < dira> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsupervised_learning ?
13:21 < Utopiah> that the distribution has a representation of itself that it can use to decide the following process that will lead (potentialy, based on its stats) to the best updates (thus directing what information to perceive next)
13:23 < dira> in discrete data or continuous form ?
13:23 < Utopiah> I don't think it matters
13:24 < dira> "Sum is more than parts" ?
13:25 < dira> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
13:25 < Utopiah> synergy?
13:25 < Utopiah> yes
13:25 < Utopiah> Ive studied that a bit
13:25 < dira> yeah + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy
13:26 < Utopiah> I don't think it is required
13:26 < dira> we are reaching exiting point , first let me ask 
13:26 < dira> do you think matrices are magic ?
13:26 < dira> they can do extraordinary things ?
13:27 < Utopiah> I don't believe in magic, in extraordinary, in supernatural, etc... I think "raw" nature is beautiful enough :D
13:27 < dira> ok , so let me rephrase , why matrices are so useful ?
13:29 < dira> or why in context of complex numbers : "The imaginary numbers are a wonderful flight of God's spirit"
13:30 < dira> there is subtle point in all of them
13:31 < dira> as physicist I had to dig so deep to understand their essence , now I want to share my understanding maybe you can fix its flaws 
13:31 < Utopiah> if I think matrices, Euclidian or non-Euclidian spaces, manifolds, etc... are way more powerful tool people conventionnaly think, then yes
13:32 < dira> the key point is in difference of normal collections (set ) and matrices
13:32 < dira> in an image ,you store it as 3D matrix 
13:33 < dira> you can also store each pixel's color in row and as members of a simple set
13:33 < dira> but by flatting the image you are losing some information , what is that information ?
13:34 < dira> lets call it order of data , or chronological / positional properties
13:35 < Utopiah> it's relation toward other pixels along the Z axis?
13:35 < Utopiah> (which can be very partially deduced from shawdows, transparency, etc...)
13:35 < dira> and  X ,  Y axis
13:36 < dira> so matrices represent two different properties of entry
13:36 < dira> 1- value
13:37 < dira> 2- position
13:37 < dira> but normal sets only include value
13:37 < Utopiah> position=index in the matrices coordinates?
13:37 < dira> exactly
13:38 < dira> and back to probability distribution
13:38 < dira> what makes them "self-reflexive" ?
13:39 < dira> the order / position/ chronological order,index  or whatever you might call
13:40 < Utopiah> that the distribution run itself , close to a form of homoiconicity I guess
13:40 < dira> ok , let me ask , what is probability distribution ?
13:41 < dira> lets talk in discrete form for now
13:41 < Utopiah> it is usually defined as a 2D curve I don't think about it that way
13:41 < dira> what is discrete  probability distribution 
13:41 < dira> ?
13:42 < Utopiah> well i guess it could be synthesis to 2D but seen the complexity I was thinking of an N D distribution (N being extremely high)
13:42 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_probability_distributions
13:43 -!- but those are not self-updating
13:43 < Utopiah> but those are not self-reflexive and thus can not be self-updating
13:44 < dira> probability distribution is just a simple mapping  that maps probability value to each point in the domain !
13:44 < Utopiah> unlike the dynamic nature of a brain which main mechanism is precisaly to update itself (through thinking, as defined earlier)
13:45 < dira> how are you mixing the two :D
13:45 < dira> "probability distribution is just a simple mapping that maps probability value to each point in the domain !" agreed ?
13:45 < Utopiah> yes
13:46 < Utopiah> when you think, you change the values of a set of points
13:46 < dira> ok then, so they can simply be modeled by matrix , agreed?
13:47 < Utopiah> knowing that a matrice can be N dimensional, I don't really know something that can not be modeled by a matrice
13:47 < dira> they = PB
13:48 < dira> ok then , ANN are based on matrices , and their perception is based on proper updating of those matrices !
13:49 < dira> the structure of ANN is complete , you might say the updating algorithm doesn't use "self-reflexive" property , but I'd say it does !
13:49 < dira> back-propagation algorithm ?
13:50 < Utopiah> I know back-propagation
13:50 < Utopiah> layer points back into the ANN
13:50 < Utopiah> I don't think it's sufficiant though
13:51 < dira> ok, then , why they are not sufficient ?
13:52 < dira> because from your thinking definition , ANN can think, but you say it lacks "self-reflexive" , I'd say there are recursive (self-modifying) algorithms 
13:53 < Utopiah> it is not able to automatically look for information that would potentially improve the quality of its results, maybe self-propagation is enough to do but so far I don't think it was used that way, but only for corrections of potential errors which is different
13:54 < dira> oh god, the oracle problem is here again :D
13:55 < Utopiah> no Orable or God in this channel please ;)
13:55 < Utopiah> I guess that theoretically
13:55 < dira> " information that would potentially improve the quality" , how one can say one information is helpful to improve quality ?
13:55 < Utopiah> an ANN that would require even for random (that's a poor strategy but, it is one) would potentially qualify according to my definition
13:56 < Utopiah> (words missing, let me rephrase)
13:57 < Utopiah> I guess that theoretically an ANN that would require, even randomly (that's a poor strategy but a start) datesets to update itself, would qualify as a "thinking" process according to my initial definition.
13:57 < Utopiah> and the next step would be for it to learn to pick the best dataset instead of random one.
13:58 < dira> "best dataset" , how does it realize what is "best" ?
13:59 < Utopiah> precisely because the simulation of the update from acquiring that dataset would increase the quality of its probability distribution
13:59 < dira> "increase the quality of its probability distribution", what do you mean ?
14:00 < Utopiah> (it does not know what is best, it can only bet on it, it's a probability too)
14:00 < Utopiah> one does not think in a vaccu,
14:00 < Utopiah> thinking, is a costly process (in the definition, it requires energy)
14:01 < Utopiah> thus it has to provide an advantage in the context it is executed
14:01 < Utopiah> the better the quality of your probability distribution is, the higher your chances of success (whatever you plan to do) are
14:02 < Utopiah> if you bet according to an innacurate distribution, you will loose.
14:02 < Utopiah> no?
14:02 < dira> I think still you are thinking with bias !
14:02 < dira> "the higher your chances of success"
14:02 < dira> how to say what has higher chance?
14:03 < dira> dude we as human can say ok , asking question from university professor has chance to be correct than asking shop-keeper
14:04 < dira> but that is not due to our brain structure
14:04 < dira> that is because we learned to act this way
14:04 < dira> or
14:04 < dira> better said "
14:04 < dira> :
14:04 < dira> we learned to decide and choose better datasets 
14:05 < Utopiah> I think it's independant from any human aspect
14:05 < Utopiah> and I fail to see what bias you are talking about, could you please clarify
14:07 < dira> bias is that you think better (with higher chance ) dataset  is known to ANN or human without extra information and only based on the original dataset ( which you call it probability distribution )
14:09 < Utopiah> (on an ironically side node, I see a bias as a low quality probability distribution)
14:11 < Utopiah> if you prefer, "looking for a good dataset" is not thinking, it's "thinking well"
14:12 < Utopiah> thinking itself, as said earlier, could theoretically work with a random dataset.
14:12 < dira> ok ,we are reaching somewhere, how to think well ?
14:12 < Utopiah> precisely by using self-reflexivity.
14:13 < dira> and what is self-reflexivity in context of thinking well :( ?
14:13 < Utopiah> knowing which probabilities in your distribution have a very high imprecision value
14:14 < Utopiah> (more classicaly said as knowing what you know, knowing what you don't know)
14:14 < Utopiah> I don't think ANN have that, even with back-propagation
14:14 < dira> (btw "thinking well" is highly related to talk I had in PIM days ago )  
14:15 < dira> (rereading your statements)
14:15 < dira> ok :
14:16 < dira> thinking well --> self-reflexivity --> "a very high imprecision value" --> ?  , how ?
14:18 < dira> I'd say without *extra* information you cannot say which probabilities in your distribution have a very high imprecision value, or if you say ok we bet , that is the plain-old random based thinking
14:18 < Utopiah> thus you need for other dataset, hence my previous requirement on ANN and their lack of ability to look for other datasets.
14:19 < dira> so does human ?
14:23 < dira> I'm saying human needs that *extra* datasets , so there is no difference between human thinking and ANN thinking at this aspect at least ,and  where to get that *extra* information , that is called meta-knowledge
14:24 < dira> that's why I said earlier  we need super centralized web based AI 
14:25 < dira> in study if intelligence in species , there is difference between conscious creature and  (conscious  + self-conscious) creature 
14:25 < Utopiah> I don't know any ANN that ask for other datasets and can generalize higher than the trained dataset, if you know some, please do let me know.
14:26 < dira> consciousness it to know, but self-consciousness is to know that you know  ( or even to know that you don't know )
14:27 < Utopiah> Id rather avoid discussion on consciousness outside of ##philosophy 
14:27 < dira> lets call this meta-knowledge based system  ,trans-consciousness
14:28 < dira> brb , I think I have good  AI sample related to your question
14:28 < Utopiah> basically, if the feedback from the usage of an ANN would be able to detect its weakness (high imprecision on probability of success on a subset) and would query for a dataset specialized in this area, I would qualify it as thinking
14:29 < Utopiah> if there is a human in the loop suggesting the new dataset to correct overfitting, then it is thinking
14:30 < Utopiah> the human in the loop "fake" the self-reflexive aspect the ANN is lacking.
14:36 < Utopiah> well
14:36 < Utopiah> take you time then, Im going to eat.
14:37 < Utopiah> (Im still welcome all AI-related systems you think of as long as they have tests done with them)
14:53 < dira> sorry I cannot find the reference, but this is the concept : in machine vision , if one object blocks part of another object , recognizing , object on background needs meta-knowledge of system , that needs a way to select more probable pattern , for example : if the image is taken in a school , and there is desk covering something on behind , the probability of it being chair is much higher...
14:53 < dira> ...than it being car ! so based on the context is chooses data sets to search for partial pattern-matching  
14:54 < dira> but if you mean of system that correct the way it thinks , I really doubt it
14:55 < dira> even human's mind doesn't work this way
14:56 < dira> if we want to think better , we just use *extra* information in thinking process , because we think of how we think , and that requires knowledge of well thinking 
15:10 < Utopiah> maybe my term "extract" wasn't clear
15:10 < Utopiah> you can check http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Cookbook.Cognition#Thinking where I defined it before proposing it to you.
15:19 < dira> btw , the "probability distribution" itself is ambiguous word , "probability distribution" of what ?
15:22 < dira> your definition is valid if you believe universe is projection of brain's idea and continuous probability distribution is atomic (non-breakable , corner stone) entity
15:24 < dira> on my side , I believe in reveres, that idea are formed by projections of real (outer ) world
15:26 < dira> and "probability distribution" is nothing but simple function that maps probabilities to each entity in domain
15:26 < dira> probability of an entity = PD( entity)
15:30 < dira> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics#Contemporary_schools_of_thought
15:35 < Utopiah> I said extract, as in perceiving information, the model that a brain is used is the result of that perpetual transformation of its own probabilty distribution
15:38 < Utopiah> a brain is just a tool to model the environment it lives in.